Asian Arts | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries | Message Board | Departments

This vase has been in my family for over 100 years. Information on this would be very much appreciated.

Not chinese but Japanese
cristina

Dear Joan
This Chinese vase has three floors. The mark at the bottom is Chinese number means 16. Its flow glaze technology is as Tang's color.But the green is not like Tang used The naked foot with color flower is much special, not found in Song dynasty. Its base is somewhat like that age.

Yie

URL Title :Dr. Yie\'s Study Room for Fine Chinese Antiques Arts

Joan,

This vase is indeed Japanese, and a Satsuma type low fired pottery ware. The finial is what is called Shishi (or Jishi) and is translated as "lion". In buddhist lore is was to repel evil spirits. There is a difference in style between the Chinese Foo dog vs the Japanese style Shishi dog, which is what you have.

The vase dates around the 1920's to 30's


Regards, Ed

Dear Joan:
I can't assert the exact period of this pecies by one glance . There is still no scientific tool can do that in my knowledge. I suggest some clues you can search for its age:
1. Why Chinese number was at its bottom by wool pen?
2. Its painting style has been appeared at late S. Song at Ge-Chou porcelain.
3. The three colors of low temperature glaze stopped using somewhat about the age of Yuan.
4. It needs to inspect the micro structure of surface glaze to konw more.
5. Consider the tansition age of S. Song to Yuan.

Yie

URL Title :Dr. Yie\'s Study Room for Fine Chinese Antiques Arts

Dear Joan,
please don`t be confused by the good doctors post. There is no need to "inspect the micro structure of the glaze" or any such nonsense & even if your vase was chinese & not japanese it would have nothing to do with Sung or Yuan periods.
I don`t know much about japanese wares & would be inclined to agree with Ed but I know a little about certain chinese ceramics & I doubt Dr Yie does, although I`m sure he means well.

Phil.

Porcelain in Song dynasty? Famille rose before Qing? I need to update my library...

These flowers are orchids, traditioned in Chinese literature, history, poem, etc, painted at this porcelain by wool pen.

Yie

Dear Yie

Those flowers and leaves are Orchids?? You must be joking !!

Ernest

That is my puzzel why parasitized orchids at the root of tree having maple-like leaves. Maybe they are fallen from their mother tree to have color close to white with yellow. Chinese paiting sometimes has an imaginable meaning. This picture shows a fallen screen, right?

Yie

What am I missing here. CHINESE???? With out a doubt, Japanese of the Satsuma Style. Probably 1910 - 1930. Crudely done

You have to excuse the good doctor here who obviously has never seen or read about Japanese ceramics and one whoose knowledge base is set on a different dimension from other collectors.

This piece is not famille rose. Famille rose is colored upon glaze with As (or Pb) element to make low temperature coating and fine particles scattering. But the flower of this piece is colored on a naked base, does not have galze. At Yuan the green flower may be done with five levels. This naked painting techniques also appeared at Ge-Chou porcelain.

Yie

Dear
This a forum, right? I think every one has its rightness to publish his opion for he has a logic and good reasons. That's the purpose of Asian art. The visitors has the wisdom to adopt the opion or not. We should focus the discussion on the subject itself, not have a personality comment. We learn the truth from try and error or discussion or argument. Who can say he is absolutely right? I approach the fact by many aspects, style is the last one, because it is easily to cheat one's eyes.
For this piece, who can answer the following questions:
(1) Why Chinese number is at the bottom of this piece? for what? similar to Song Jen porcelain.
(2) Why the base material is as yellow close to pottery?
(3) Why the style of this piece is close to S. Song Long-Chung so-called "Soul bottle"?
(4) Both Song and Yaun exported porcelains to Japan, right?
(5) When Japan made porcelain and which style he could mimic?

If you can answer above questions, my conclusion is clear. Thanks for every one, your opion do me deeper research. But I expect: "to give your reasons to convince others, not by your authority."

Dr. Yie

What the heck. Okey since you insisted...



(1) "Why Chinese number is at the bottom of this piece? for what? similar to Song Jen porcelain."

Because older Japanese characters shared MANY similar characters with Chinese words because it was based on Chinese words. Among the many Japanese characters that were similar to Chinese characters were the characters for the numbers. That's why this item has Chinese style characters on the bottom that are actually Japanese. This covered vase was likely from a large set.



(2) "Why the base material is as yellow close to pottery?"

It's yellow close to pottery because it is pottery. This is NOT porcelain! Have you ever heard of Satsuma wares?



(3) "Why the style of this piece is close to S. Song Long-Chung so-called "Soul bottle"?

Please tell me you don't think this is longquan celadon. I'm guessing you mean burial urns or funeral urn? I'm guessing you think it looks like it because it has a lid and soul bottles have lids too so it must be a soul bottle? Look at it this way... I have a Ming plate. It's round. I have other plates in my kitchen. They are round too. Thus all the plates in my kitchen must be Ming. I have Ming plates every where!



(4) "Both Song and Yaun exported porcelains to Japan, right?"

Yes. Here you are right. There was trade between China and Japan during the Song and Yuan period and some of that trade included ceramics. Anyone who disputes that fact is pretty dumb.



(5) "When Japan made porcelain and which style he could mimic?"

The Japanese kilns started to make proper porcelain during the 17th century. Far later than the Chinese. However the Japanese have been making pottery and stonewares far longer than than porcelain. The early Arita wares were mostly simple blue and white pieces made for the local market and some pieces do have similarities to Chinese examples. The most notable were the Arita copies of Chinese kraak pattern dishes and copies of Chinese Longquan celadon wares that were mostly exported to SE Asia. And just to make things more confusing, the Japanese put Ming dynasty marks on many of their plates and dishes that were made much later to make things more difficult for future collectors! Arn't they mean!? But as I said earlier, this jar is not porcelain!



But on a more serious note.... please do find a published example of such a jar decorated in such a manner and described as Song, Yuan or Ming in any book. If possible please show a picture of the item in that book. I'm sure everyone here would really like to see it and find out the name of the author.



I've answered all your questions. Your turn!

I would like to thank all of the participants in this discussion about whether it is or isn't Chinese/Japenese. It was given to my grandmother by an old friend of hers in Summerside, P.E.I. How it arrived in P.E.I. at that period would of been by some type of ship. I am trying to get more information from my mother but her memory is losing ground quite quickly.

Joan:
I agree with Ed and Mike… this is 20 century piece.
Further,it may be modern art piece?
Regards

Thanks for every one's information. I introduce one website for you to enjoy:
http://www.lasieexotique.com/mag_satsumaware.html

Yie

For your reference, the techniques of painting of Satsum type is much different from above piece. Please go on
http://www.trocadero.com/threeempires/catalog/Antiques:Regional_Art:Asian:Japanese:Earthenware.html
and click its details

Yie

URL Title :Three Empires

There are many types and quality of Satsuma wares. Like Ming porcelain. There is a very low end minyo pieces with simple cobalt decoration to the very well done cobalt paintings on high quality pieces. Using the link you provided at



"http://www.lasieexotique.com/mag_satsumaware.html "



which shows the very best quality of Satsuma wares to disprove that the above vase is not of Satsuma or Nippon origin is half cooked. You cannot compare a high quality items with that of a low quality item and say since there is an obvious difference in appearence of the two, the two must therefore not be related or from the same time period. If you don't believe me, do a search for "nippon wares" at Google or Trocadero.com. Maybe you will learn something if you have an open mind.

Asianart.com | Associations | Articles | Exhibitions | Galleries | Message Board | Departments

Dear Joan:

I answer my questions in the followings you may adopt or not.:

This piece is absolutely Chinese. You can find the same information in Chinese porcelain books

(1)   The Chinese words marked at bottom of Japanese porcelain always are the name (of the lord, etc)

characters to represents the owner, not numbers. The Chinese number was generally used at Song

porcelains to represent the size or worked sequence such as Jen kiln.

(2)   The base material is not pottery, but the coarse porcelain. You may compare above one

to Ge-Chou kiln. Pottery has

Void large enough you can see as Tang horse.

(3)   At my hand, there is several book which have the decoration of Yaun pieces

as this one. I can’t adopt them here Because my picture post is rejected. Soul bottle

 you may refer Chinese porcelain book. It has the periodic generation, Ge-Chou kiln

was close to that of Long-quen period.

(4)   The Satsuma ones are far more beautiful than above one because they are near Quin

dynasty (19^th). The porcelain techniques at that period has well developed, I introduce one

website for you to compare and enjoy. . Please go on:

  http://www.lasieexotique.com/mag_satsumaware.html

(5)   The Satsuma type porcelain history is well described in the above website. The techniques for its

micro details you can find in the following website, please go “click for details”: You well find both

 are much different. Yours piece is actually Chinese wool pen painting.

http://www.trocadero.com/threeempires/catalog/Antiques:Regional_Art:Asian:Japanese:Earthenware.html

I am sorry that I can’t go on this forum further to solve your problems because

I exposed their tricks and real faces. But I think you may do yours well.

Good-bye, my brother..

Sincerely yours.

Yie  , / Oct. 1,  2006